View Full Version : Methods of applying for Class III (Trust,Corp,Personal)
spikes40
09-28-2008, 10:08 AM
There are currently 3 methods in applying for class III approval. This post will outline the 3 methods accepted for legal BATF transfer
Personal Transfer - This is when the gun will be registered and transfered to your person. IE, the transfer to box will name you as your legal name. This will require your form 1 or form 4 to be filled out and printed in duplicate along with CLEO signoff on the forms, a fingerprint card w/ current prints, (2) passport photos, and the certificate of complience, along with a $200.00 application fee. All forms can be downloaded from http://www.titleii.com
Corporate Transfer- This is the same as the personal transfer but rather then having the gun registered in your personal name, It is registered under a corporation name. This will allow all officers of the corporation to be in possession of said weapon. Same requirements as above. Forms must e submitted in duplicate with CLEO signoff, fingerprints (current),(2)passport photos, and the certificate of compliance. $200.00 fee
Revocable Trust Transfer- a trust seems to be the easiest way to go these days. This is usually the priciest way but easiest. A trust transfer can be accomplished by contacting a lawyer and having an revocable living trust created. Once the trust is created, the gun will transfer to the name of the living trust (ie. The John Doe Firearms Trust). That will be the name in the trasfer to box. Doing a transfer on a trust is the easiest wat to go because once the trust is created, all you will need to do is fill out your forms in duplicate (cleo signoff not needed for trust transfer), a current finger print card, the certificate of compliance, and a copy of the trust. Passport photos are not needed with a trust transfer as well. $200.00 fee will apply
ProfessorStoneFace
09-29-2008, 01:55 PM
I've heard people say that if all your firearms are in a trust that the firearms cannot be taken if say the guns laws changed and AR-15' became illegal. is that true?
I need to comment on spikes' post. You should not use an irrevocable trust, since you can not alter the trust document once it has been created. Another big issue is that the grantor no longer has control of the assets under the trust. Revocable Living Trusts are the preferable vehicle. You should use an attorney specializing in NFA Trusts rather than Willmaker, etc, as there are considerations to make when naming beneficiaries of the RLT and how the transfer of assets to the beneficiary conform to BATFE guidelines. However, you can use the boiler plate stuff if you are a little legal savy and not able to afford an attorney but have to get your toy. The nice thing is that you can always amend your trust with one professionally prepared when you do have the funds.
I've heard people say that if all your firearms are in a trust that the firearms cannot be taken if say the guns laws changed and AR-15' became illegal. is that true?
I do not believe an RLT provides any protection from any ban absent of grandfathering unless there is language specifically allowing banned items with corporate and trust entities.
ProfessorStoneFace
09-29-2008, 05:02 PM
I do not believe an RLT provides any protection from any ban absent of grandfathering unless there is language specifically allowing banned items with corporate and trust entities.
that's what I figured, if it was that easy to keep your guns not matter what everyone would do it :)
spikes40
09-29-2008, 07:50 PM
looks like time to grab my raust paperwork...stay tuned
spikes40
09-29-2008, 07:52 PM
not sure what i was thinking when i wrote the post...you are correct mine is a REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST...correcting the post now
styles
12-11-2008, 12:37 PM
Was thinking about uploading a sample RLT, blanking out all the personal information of course.
Maybe going in to your attorney with a sample would lower the cost.
Maybe others could do the same and we could compare verbage.
Anyone interested?
-Brian
spikes40
12-11-2008, 12:50 PM
Brian, i used yours and swaped out the info...had my lawyer review and i was good to go...i was not even charged a fee to have him look it over
quirt111
12-19-2008, 06:22 PM
I would like to add to spikes40 description about the Trust route. You also Do Not need to submit fingerprints when using a firearms trust.
I also believe that when doing a Corporation type transfer you do not need to submit a CLEO signature, fingerprints or photos.
However with a corporation transfer you are always paying your corporate annual renewals to the state, dealing with the chance your company can go bust among other tax liabilities--then what happens to all your high dollar toys? Your going to end up doing a private or trust transfer and go through the waiting and expense all over while your toys sit in some class 3 dealers safe. The only benefit I could see for a corporate transfer would be everybody at the company picinic who is a corporate officer can shoot.
I did mine with the firearms trust and it was no muss no fuss, had a NFA specality lawyer set it all up, total cost $400 and had it in my mailbox ready to sent to BATF in 2 days. Sent it to BATF 10/3/08 got the stamp 12/15/08 and it was my 1st transfer. They tell me your 1st transfer takes the longest after that the wait time has been known to be a little less because your in the system. Plus the one time $200 transfer tax fee is only payable that one time only.
anthony20031
08-03-2009, 04:21 PM
Anyone have a copy of their trust document...or like a sample I could use? That way I can save the $400 of paying an attorney? Kind of like spikes did using Brian's. Any takers? Think I may be getting myself a suppressor.
JaxChris
08-03-2009, 08:25 PM
Nice idea. But if you look around online there are a number of Class3 dealers that have the info on their websites and will even help you out.
But I can see where doing it all yourself could be beneficial. Hmmm, I think I may create a trust myself. May want to grab some silencers (YHM Phantom) and AOW's (Super Shorty) in the near future. Plus if I ever run into the chance to acquire/afford a Pre-86 lower I'd want it as soon as possible.
spikes40
08-03-2009, 08:27 PM
jax i see pre 86 lowers everyday just got to shell out 10k-15k for one..or why not get 2?
Secpro
08-04-2009, 06:31 AM
So with the trust you are able to own any firearm you want?
spikes40
08-04-2009, 06:42 AM
as long as they are transferables...only goes for NFA
anthony20031
08-04-2009, 07:54 AM
Yh I mean I know the basic structures etc of a trust as I do deal with them occassionally at work but I was informed that there are a few things that should be added in if you are using it to get NFA items
anthony20031
08-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Nice idea. But if you look around online there are a number of Class3 dealers that have the info on their websites and will even help you out.
Any that you know of off the top of your head?
I've only dealt with 3 Type 3 SOT FFL's in South Florida. Vito at Only the Best in Pompano, Andy Blaschik at KGB in Pompano, and Lee Gordon at Lee's Pawn in Margate. I don't think these guys will set you up with a trust for free or part of the purchase, but I didn't really get into those particular services with them.
Couple of observations with these guys:
OTB - One of the best Class 3 inventory in South Florida. Vito travels the gun show circuit, so check ahead if they are open on a specific weekend. If you don't know pricing, he will sense it right away and get the most of what he can on the deal. I don't blame him as I'm a big supporter of capitalism.
KGB - Andy's a really nice guy with a high level of personal expertise and service. He's a one man show, so everything is by appointment only. He is expensive tho as he looks for a minimum of $125 or 10% margin on all transfers.
Lee's Pawn - Lee is very inexpensive with transfers at $75 the last time I used him. I think I read he is doing class 3 transfers for even less now. My only issue is that he seemed a little unorganized.
I'll make one recommendation. Find a suppressor in stock at your dealer. Most of the suppressor mfg's are nortorious for making each model in batches, so if they aren't queued up to make the one you want, it may be months before they get to it. Since you can't process a transfer to you until it becomes available and has been transfered to your dealer, it could be a reeeeaaaaallllly long time before you submit your check and Form 4 for another excrutiating wait. If you can't find one locally, then the second option is to find one in stock at another dealer and have it transferred to your dealer. I've have quite a few dealings with www.politesocietyinc.com in GA and just had it transferred via Form 3 to a local dealer. This process can be done via fax and is tax exempt, so you can actually save on sales tax with just the transfer fee. Anyhoo, good luck.
anthony20031
08-04-2009, 04:40 PM
I've only dealt with 3 Type 3 SOT FFL's in South Florida. Vito at Only the Best in Pompano, Andy Blaschik at KGB in Pompano, and Lee Gordon at Lee's Pawn in Margate. I don't think these guys will set you up with a trust for free or part of the purchase, but I didn't really get into those particular services with them.
Couple of observations with these guys:
OTB - One of the best Class 3 inventory in South Florida. Vito travels the gun show circuit, so check ahead if they are open on a specific weekend. If you don't know pricing, he will sense it right away and get the most of what he can on the deal. I don't blame him as I'm a big supporter of capitalism.
KGB - Andy's a really nice guy with a high level of personal expertise and service. He's a one man show, so everything is by appointment only. He is expensive tho as he looks for a minimum of $125 or 10% margin on all transfers.
Lee's Pawn - Lee is very inexpensive with transfers at $75 the last time I used him. I think I read he is doing class 3 transfers for even less now. My only issue is that he seemed a little unorganized.
I'll make one recommendation. Find a suppressor in stock at your dealer. Most of the suppressor mfg's are nortorious for making each model in batches, so if they aren't queued up to make the one you want, it may be months before they get to it. Since you can't process a transfer to you until it becomes available and has been transfered to your dealer, it could be a reeeeaaaaallllly long time before you submit your check and Form 4 for another excrutiating wait. If you can't find one locally, then the second option is to find one in stock at another dealer and have it transferred to your dealer. I've have quite a few dealings with www.politesocietyinc.com in GA and just had it transferred via Form 3 to a local dealer. This process can be done via fax and is tax exempt, so you can actually save on sales tax with just the transfer fee. Anyhoo, good luck.
Just want to confirm. So I setup the trust and then once I do that and choose the item say at the dealer that is when I fill out form 4 and pay the $200 tax etc. Correct?
Just want to confirm. So I setup the trust and then once I do that and choose the item say at the dealer that is when I fill out form 4 and pay the $200 tax etc. Correct?
Your dealer should complete the Form4 for you. You just need to provide two copies of your trust and the $200 check. Some dealers will complete the form and give you the paperwork and envelope and tell you to mail it while others will mail it for you. Personally, I like to mail it so I can make copies and either send it overnight or priority mail with tracking. Create a binder with copies of all your paperwork and trust and keep it for your records. When you do receive the form back with the tax stamp, make sure you put it in a very secure place like a fireproof safe. This is your permanent record and should the AFT ever misplace or lose your records, your stamp is the only thing that proves you are not breaking Federal laws.
JaxChris
08-04-2009, 10:18 PM
Only places I've found online charge 75-100$ for submitting your Form 4 and holding your item for you (oddly the same price if it's bought from them or a transfer from another dealer).
I'll very likely drive to Tactical Machining since he has a Type 3 (if I remember correctly) and does free transfers. I'm likely going to be buying alot from him in the future (his prices are great) after all these other sales have died down. Too bad there aren't any affordable suppressors made in Florida - then I'd just wait to see if the Florida Firearm Freedom Act ever passes and just skip the tax stamps.
Secpro
02-22-2010, 11:24 AM
So exactly what is a trust? I've read all the posts here, but can't figure what it is.
ProfessorStoneFace
02-22-2010, 07:51 PM
a trust is "an arrangement in which property is managed by one person or entity for the benefit of another".
it's kinda weird to me but at the same time what's a corporation? it's just paperwork. a trust is similar in the sense that it's just paperwork to protect or manage property, property being anything from homes to guns.
I just set up my trust through Andy at Tactical Firearms Academy. Probably going to get a suppressor first and then a short barreled AR later.
Secpro
02-23-2010, 06:21 AM
a trust is "an arrangement in which property is managed by one person or entity for the benefit of another".
it's kinda weird to me but at the same time what's a corporation? it's just paperwork. a trust is similar in the sense that it's just paperwork to protect or manage property, property being anything from homes to guns.
I just set up my trust through Andy at Tactical Firearms Academy. Probably going to get a suppressor first and then a short barreled AR later.
Hmmm.. So basically it's just a set of hoops to jump to get a class three gun etc?
I want a surpressor for my AR I think. The colt SBR in 9mm seems to stick at me a lot these days, but we see how that purchase goes.
spikes40
02-23-2010, 07:56 AM
The colt SBR in 9mm seems to stick at me a lot these days, but we see how that purchase goes.
you can check out mine whenever you want
anthony20031
02-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Trust first started as a way to protect assets and ensure that they could be handed down throughout generations of families. It can also be used to purchase things such as suppressors etc which is a way around the only other option being getting a signature from your chief of police.
Secpro
02-23-2010, 08:25 AM
Now the whole damn thing makes more sense to me. So I hear a lot of you guys have pretty much all of your guns in a trust with all of your other belongings?
JaxChris
02-23-2010, 10:22 AM
Not all, just the NFA items that require tax stamps. You can also put some cash in there to pay for training, ammo, and future transfers to relatives after you die. Everything else you can legal own you should keep in your own name.
If you did anything to cause you to lose your right to own firearms the assets in the trust could also be seized if not transferred to someone else in a timely fashion - so a trust doesn't completely protect your investments either.
Secpro
02-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Not all, just the NFA items that require tax stamps. You can also put some cash in there to pay for training, ammo, and future transfers to relatives after you die. Everything else you can legal own you should keep in your own name.
If you did anything to cause you to lose your right to own firearms the assets in the trust could also be seized if not transferred to someone else in a timely fashion - so a trust doesn't completely protect your investments either.
Oh I see! Well I'm you fuckers are around to tell me all this shit before hand. I don't know when but I'll probably hook with one the guys listed (no homo) and do a trust and all that transfer stuff.
ProfessorStoneFace
02-23-2010, 10:53 PM
the big advantage to the trust or corporation is that you don't have to get the signature of your local chief of police. plus there's less stuff you have to do on the form 4, no passport photos and what not.
my first class III purchase will be a suppressor, probably a quicksilver one, that's what Andy was suggesting.
http://www.qsmsilencers.com/
Secpro
02-24-2010, 06:26 AM
the big advantage to the trust or corporation is that you don't have to get the signature of your local chief of police. plus there's less stuff you have to do on the form 4, no passport photos and what not.
my first class III purchase will be a suppressor, probably a quicksilver one, that's what Andy was suggesting.
http://www.qsmsilencers.com/
A suppressor is also first on my list. The quicksilver doesn't look bad at all.
JaxChris
02-24-2010, 11:57 AM
Another thing between the corp & trust methods. The trust is cheaper because it doesn't require annual fees, taxes, etc like the corp does - but the trust is revocable and is more prone to losing your items like I mentioned before, whereas the corp is a more stable entity that can continue to survive on its own by placing control upon others and removing anyone that can no longer operate NFA items. This saves from having to transfer weapons to another entity.
ProfessorStoneFace
02-24-2010, 01:17 PM
I have my dad as the one you would get everything in my trust. pretty sure you can include as many or as few in the trust as you want. so if you wanted your wife and kids all to have access you just include them as part of the trust. I'm new to all this so I could be wrong.
When I get my tax refund I'll order the suppressor, should be fun :D I figure when everything is all done on the paperwork side of things I'll write up a post showing how I did everything from a newb's point of view, hopefully it'll be helpful.
Secpro
02-24-2010, 01:22 PM
I have my dad as the one you would get everything in my trust. pretty sure you can include as many or as few in the trust as you want. so if you wanted your wife and kids all to have access you just include them as part of the trust. I'm new to all this so I could be wrong.
When I get my tax refund I'll order the suppressor, should be fun :D I figure when everything is all done on the paperwork side of things I'll write up a post showing how I did everything from a newb's point of view, hopefully it'll be helpful.
Yes please do! I will follow your strategy on it. Everyon else is pretty much a pro around here. Them fuckers can be confusing with all there knowledge on the subject.
ProfessorStoneFace
02-24-2010, 01:32 PM
ha ha, "Class III Phil" is definitely a pro :D
Secpro
02-24-2010, 01:42 PM
Got nada on the Crossbreed site for a 642.
ProfessorStoneFace
02-24-2010, 01:54 PM
dang, no Crossbreed love for the 642.
Secpro
02-24-2010, 01:56 PM
dang, no Crossbreed love for the 642.
No sir! They have no love for revolvers at all from what I saw. Nada for J hooks!
ProfessorStoneFace
02-24-2010, 02:02 PM
under the supertuck holster I found one option that says it holds all J-frame S&W, is that the right one?
http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/IWB/tabid/56/CategoryID/1/List/0/Level/1/ProductID/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName
Secpro
02-24-2010, 03:17 PM
under the supertuck holster I found one option that says it holds all J-frame S&W, is that the right one?
http://www.crossbreedholsters.com/IWB/tabid/56/CategoryID/1/List/0/Level/1/ProductID/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName
Oh shit look at that!
handlebar
02-06-2012, 05:17 PM
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/UPL%20by%20Gun%20Shops.pdf
I hope this web site is accessible to you all. It lists the dangers of "gun shop" trusts. It is making me think that the cost may well be worth the peace of mind of simply being "legal" all the time. I hope I don't sound to much like a worry wart, but the last thing I need is a legal problem. I am thinking of using the Davis-Gasta law firm in N. FL.
There are many reputable shops around with a proven track record. Some lawyer is mad that he can't get his cut of the deal.